Summary
This episode of CareLab features occupational therapists Emilia Bourland, Brandy Archie, and guest Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk), discussing bathroom accessibility challenges, specifically the controversial rear wall grab bar. They explore its appropriateness in home settings versus public restrooms, alternatives to traditional grab bars, and considerations for user-centered solutions. The conversation also touches on attitudes toward assistive equipment, aesthetics, and the importance of planning ahead for accessibility.
Key Questions Answered
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Why are rear wall grab bars commonly seen in public restrooms, and are they suitable for home use?
Rear wall grab bars are designed primarily for wheelchair users in public restrooms to assist with lateral transfers. However, in home settings, these bars may not be appropriate due to differing individual needs and bathroom layouts. It's essential to assess personal requirements before installation. -
What factors should be considered when installing grab bars at home?
Home installations should be individualized, taking into account the user's mobility, strength, and daily routines. Consulting with an occupational therapist can help determine the most effective and safe placement of grab bars tailored to the individual's needs. -
Why do some individuals resist using adaptive equipment like grab bars?
Resistance often stems from aesthetic concerns or the stigma associated with aging and disability. Some individuals fear that such equipment makes their homes look institutional or signals a loss of independence. Addressing these concerns through education and design can help increase acceptance. -
Are there alternatives to traditional grab bars that are both functional and aesthetically pleasing?
Yes, there are many affordable and discreet alternatives available. Modern designs offer stylish options that blend seamlessly with home decor while providing the necessary support and safety features. -
How can proactive planning enhance bathroom safety and accessibility?
Planning for accessibility during home remodels can save time and money in the long run. By incorporating safety features early on, individuals can maintain their dignity and independence, reducing the risk of accidents and the need for future modifications.
Transcript
Emilia Bourland
It's happening. It's happening. Hi, everyone. Welcome to CareLab.
Brandy Archie
Welcome to Care Lab. You know, we're already laughing and joking because we got Maria Lindbergh back on the podcast and she needs no introduction because she's a Care Lab fave. So Maria, welcome.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Thank you so much for having me. You I love coming to join the party on Care Lab. It is Friday morning, so I'm ready to rock and roll.
Emilia Bourland
Let's do this. Brandy, do you, because we didn't even talk about this before you hit record, do you have an icebreaker? Do we need an icebreaker with Maria Lundberg? What's going on? It's crazy. No one knows.
Brandy Archie
Do it.
Brandy Archie
No I don't.
So this is what I actually think we should do, because we kind of talked about what we want to talk about, and I think that is actually the icebreaker. And so let's just let it be. So what is one thing that you hate to see in bathrooms?
Emilia Bourland
Okay.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-mm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm, okay. Yes.
Brandy Archie
So Maria has to start.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I will start, I will start. This is something that isn't commonly thought about. But if you walk into any public restroom, like maybe you go into a coffee shop or you're going to your doctor's office or something like that, you walk in, you look at the handicap accessible stall and you see a grab bar on the back wall of the toilet.
So you may see a grab bar like above the toilet tank. And it is at kind of an awkward height if you're standing up, but that's because it is meant for wheelchair users when they're seated in the wheelchair to hold onto and help pull themselves over to the toilet seat. So what people think is in their own home bathrooms, they start to look at
you know, these accessible handicapped stalls in public places, and they may think that they also need a rear wall grab bar. So I'm gonna turn it to you both and hear what you think. Should people in their own homes have rear wall grab bars or should they just skip it?
Emilia Bourland
man, I like how you turned that right around back at us, Maria Lindbergh.
Brandy Archie
like how you did that.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes, yes, I want to hear your thoughts.
Brandy Archie
Sure did.
Emilia Bourland
All right, I guess I was gonna say I didn't ask the original question, so I think I have to go first. Okay, so.
Brandy Archie
Emilia you first.
Emilia Bourland
I think that the best and most boring answer is probably, it's always, it depends on the individual. However, for the vast majority of people, a grab bar on the rear wall just above the toilet tank is probably not going to be appropriate because most people aren't going to be using a grab bar for that particular type of transfer unless they are perhaps a wheel chooser.
wheelchair user in their home and there's not a better setup or transfer like method for that person. mean, that said, I'm sure there are scenarios in which a grab bar above the back of the toilet might work for some people. Like I'm definitely not a, I tend to be a never say never, but in most circumstances,
That's probably not going to be appropriate. And what is appropriate to find out what is actually correct for you would be to get an evaluation with an occupational therapist to determine. It's always the answer. You may have noticed this theme at Care Lab, dear listener. That's always the answer. But it really is actually the best thing to do to make sure that the grab bar that you need, if indeed you do need a grab bar, is placed in the correct spot.
Brandy Archie
always the answer.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Ha ha ha ha.
Who's a common thread, yeah.
Emilia Bourland
for you or your loved one or whoever is going to be using it. Because when we're looking at individual bathrooms and individual needs, that often requires individual placement solutions. So it's not always just like universally done, especially because like most bathrooms, we're not built to universal design standards.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
right? And so, you know, they might be really small, they might be really big, they might have the toilet set up in a certain way where there aren't any walls near you, right? And so you really want someone to come in who can see all the possibilities, who knows about all the products, and the ways that they can go in there and can make the right recommendation for that person. Brandy, you had some looks on your face while I was talking. So
Brandy Archie
yeah, no.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Ha
Brandy Archie
strong opinions about this but before I like divulge into that, Maria it sounds like you know a legitimate reason for why a rear wall grab bar would be in place in a public space and I don't. So can you tell us a little bit about what who might use you said a wheelchair user I'm still picturing somebody using a wheelchair and unless they're going to pull themselves onto the toilet backwards essentially so their face is facing the tank.
Emilia Bourland
Okay.
Hahaha!
Brandy Archie
I don't see a way that you're using that rear wall grab bar.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
It is tricky. you know, like Amelia was talking about, you really would want to have an occupational therapist involved in deciding whether to put one in or not. I made a video on YouTube. So if you go to YouTube and you type at Toilet Talk Me,
you'll find a whole bunch of my videos and one of them is titled rear wall grab bar. So if you would like to see me demonstrating, of course I'm not a wheelchair user. it's, you know, there's one representation of how to get on and off. And plus I'm transferring from a chair to a toilet. So it's not even an actual wheelchair, but it does take for some people, you have to have the ability to reach up.
and reach out to grab the grab bar. So for some people that's not possible to grab the rear wall grab bar. In the video, I actually like turned my upper back a little bit to actually be able to grip the rear wall grab bar. And then you have to be able to have like the strength to scoot your butt on over to the toilet. So it's actually, there was a small study done.
And I believe it was through Resna, which is, those are the engineers who like help set up like the, you know, ADA guidelines for putting grab bars into bathroom and like how big we should make stalls and things like that. And so there was a small study done actually through Georgia Tech and in Resna combined, where they asked people who lived in kind of like a nursing home setting.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
and they were asking them, had them, some of the residents had bathrooms with rear wall grab bars and some of them did not have any. And so they got feedback from them. Some of them, the ones who did use the rear wall grab bars, some of them said that it worked out really well for them. Like they had, they typically had a rear wall grab bar in addition to another grab bar on the wall next to the toilet. So they had two grab bars that they could use.
So some of them liked it, but some of them said that it was actually confusing and that they didn't know where to put their hands to safely get on and off the toilet. So I know I've seen some pretty wild toilet transfers in my day involving those rear wall grab bars. I've seen men who, you know, they're standing up facing the toilet to urinate.
and they're holding onto that grab bar, but it's making them like lean forward and not have the best balance. So it can also, that's why I ask because it's like you said, Amelia, it's always a, it depends situation. But yeah, that's why rear wall grab bars are put in is mostly for wheelchair users to get on and off of the toilet.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Okay, well, I'm gonna watch the video so can see how that transfer works because I still don't feel like I see very many people who would need to use that bar and couldn't do a different kind of transfer with the bar that's on the wall beside you.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
I think that's the thing, right? Like all three of us have probably taught hundreds, if not thousands of wheelchair users how to do a toilet transfer. And I've literally never ever taught someone to do that with a rear wall grab bar. So.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes, yeah, it's usually, it works well for people who are like tall and they've got like the limbs and the reach. Yes, the long arms, it usually works better for them. But when you have like petite, like tiny little old women, it's just not even an option unless you wanna like crack a rib or give them another like crack in the spine or do something like that.
Emilia Bourland
Mmm, long arms.
Brandy Archie
Long arms.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
You're going to be breaking some back precautions for sure. So yeah, it's very, anecdotally, I've seen few people benefit from that rear wall grump.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
I think that has like in a slightly different tone of thought. It has, I'm not here to take away no accessibility from anyone. So if a grab bar on the wall helps one in a hundred people, one in a hundred people are helped. I'm glad for that in public. mean, in a public space, your question was, should we have it in somebody's house? Probably not. Like it's like the strong answers. Probably not. There's no real good reason for that. I'm also just a fan of the least grab bars possible at home.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm
Brandy Archie
Because the thing that people call about the most, because it's the thing you recognize the easiest, is like, I need a grab bar. And maybe 50 % of the time, that's not actually the best answer. They need something. They do need help. But it's not necessarily a grab bar because they're fairly inaccessible to get done, I guess is what I'm saying. Because where we might want to put the grab bar is not necessarily where the studs are at or where it's possible to screw into a wallet.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Or do you want to screw into your ceramic tile? It has a risk of being cracked. Really challenging on the stone tile. And so if I can find another way to solve the problem without all of those risk factors, the showers with the plexiglass, enclosures, you can't really screw into those. And so I'm always like, how can we solve this without a grab bar? So I definitely have never recommended one.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
And I'm usually recommending like as few as possible. Like I love a angled grab bar on the sidewall of the toilet so that whether you're standing up and peeing or sitting down, you have a place to hold on to that's the right angle for you. So like if we do one of those, then we're Gucci. But...
Emilia Bourland
Is that a new term from the kids, from the youngins being Gucci? Because I like it. I like it and I'm taking it.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
As the children say, yeah, yeah, that's what the youth say.
Brandy Archie
It's so funny because I actually don't think it's very new. think it's like, like to me, the kids saying something, to me that sounds like my kids age, the 10 and down. Like Gucci I feel like is like what teenagers or somebody older than like 20 year olds say. Cause that's just saying a lot about how old I am. So I'm just saying don't act like that's like a new thing to say and you feel cool because it's probably still old. That's all I'm saying.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah
Emilia Bourland
really?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Emilia Bourland
I I recognize that if I'm just hearing it and recognizing it, it's very unlikely that this is a new thing that I am picking up on early as an early adopter. I recognize I am not an early adopter. I am not on trend. And when I say it, my children are going to be deeply embarrassed. But I like it. I do like it. So.
Brandy Archie
You
Brandy Archie
And on trend.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I'm like...
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I'm
Brandy Archie
that's so funny. It's so funny that it just like filled into my vocabulary, but yes.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
You should start addressing.
Emilia Bourland
No, I like it. We're Gucci.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
No, no, if you really wanna embarrass your kids, whenever you want their attention, like to talk to both of them, say chat and then say what you're gonna say. Like I'll say chat, chat. Like I'll say chat, hey, do you want to put this grab bar above your toilet? Like if you're addressing.
Emilia Bourland
chat Gucci?
Brandy Archie
chat.
Emilia Bourland
Like, like C-H-A-T.
Brandy Archie
this is the new like, hey, like, hey, what's up?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes. Yeah, it's instead of hey, it's chat.
Emilia Bourland
I'm gonna try that this evening with my 10 year old who is basically 24, like in his level of coolness and being like up to date with things. So I'm gonna be like, hey chat, you wanna go out for some Mexican food tonight? And he's gonna be like, what? And he's gonna, and then as soon as I say it, he will never say it again. He's gonna be like, okay, well, mom's got it now.
Brandy Archie
Interesting.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Okay.
Brandy Archie
Why are you talking to me like that?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Indeed.
Brandy Archie
Well, that word's dead.
Emilia Bourland
That word's dead.
Indeed. Okay, not to steer the conversation away from important things, you know. Okay, I have a question for you both kind of based on what you were just saying, Brandy. And I don't necessarily, I don't have an opinion actually here. This is just curiosity about what y'all's experience has been doing home modifications with people. Because you're right, Brandy, a lot of times like,
Brandy Archie
That's hilarious.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
haha
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
So.
Emilia Bourland
The two big reasons that I would be called in for a home modification most of the time is someone thinks they need a grab bar or someone is having trouble accessing the shower or something in their bathroom, right? Like those are the two big ones, which by the way, folks, we cannot help you access all kinds of areas of your home to do all of the things that you want to do, not just shower and poop. Although those are important things. Those are really important things.
Brandy Archie
yeah.
Brandy Archie
Yes.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
But those are the most important things that you gotta do multiple times a day in the smallest, most inaccessible room in your house. So this is the reason why we are, this is the reason Maria has toilet talk, because it's like, this is the primary problem in our houses.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Those are, yes.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, that's, that, it is really, it's actually also one of my most favorite things to work with is toileting and toileting independence and all that stuff because it is so important and it's not just about like hygiene and the things we have to do. It's all about, also about like human dignity and independence in a very,
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes. Yes!
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes.
Brandy Archie
Absolutely.
Emilia Bourland
basic way that really means something to people. it actually, like, I share, we probably, we all share, I think Maria's passion for the importance of independence with toileting. But okay, so here's my question. So called in, I think I need a grab bar, not sure where to put it. It's kind of a funky situation. And so,
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Totally.
Emilia Bourland
You know, there are some bathrooms where like maybe the way that the toilet is positioned, it's just not near any walls. Maybe it's also an elongated toilet. So a grab bar would have to come out really far to actually be usable. And so you're thinking, OK, well, perhaps we get one that can like fold up and fold down so it's not in the walking space, but then it all goes. But these are more complicated solutions, right? And to your point, Brandy, sometimes the better solution just is like
put an elevated toilet seat with some handles on that toilet, put a bedside, my favorite easy go-to, put a three-in-one commode over that thing. It raises, it lowers, it's very stable, it has armrests on it so you can use them to give yourself a boost to get up and down, which also helps to maintain your strength for getting up and down off of other things. And it's also way less expensive and does not require any kind of construction.
That equipment rather than a grab bar, depending on the situation, is also often my go-to in recommendations. But that's not necessarily what I have found people want. There's still resistance to that equipment, and sometimes people will still choose. I would prefer to go through the more complex thing with the grab bar. Has that also been... Of course, it totally depends on people's aesthetics and their opinions.
I view my place as like, I'm there as a partner, I'm there to educate, like these are my recommendations, this is why ultimately the choice is up to you, the homeowner, right? So have you also had that experience? Both of you.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes, Brandy, do you want to go for? Okay, thanks. I yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I've had that experience so many times. And I feel like I go in with the same approach where it's like, I, you know, I'm here, I'm going to make some recommendations, and you choose what's going to work best for you. And there are people who have I remember, it was devastating, there was this
Brandy Archie
Yeah, you go Maria.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
a woman whose mother was living with her. And she had just discharged from rehab. And so I went to the house and looked in the bathroom and it was very like the only thing she needed the mother was simply like some armrest next to the toilet, not so much she was very short. not so much to
raise the toilet and make it taller because that would make her feet not touch the floor and make it uncomfortable in the back of her legs, which we do not want. But yeah, just pretty much some armrests for the toilet. And so the daughter was adamant that she went in her bathroom to look a certain way and she would rather help her mom get on and off of the toilet than even make a simple change for her mother to do it on her own.
And so that can be difficult. it's, you know, the good things are, yes, like I am very much, I mean, that's the great thing about us as occupational therapists, right? Like we know all of the things and all of the products and we can, you know, based on, you know, whether it's like, you know, I've got a really tight budget. So here's some really inexpensive recommendations. I always tell people like,
Brandy Archie
Mm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
you know, ask relatives, friends, if you belong to like a church or a mosque, ask like people like, do you is there, you know, elevated toilet seat with handles or three and one commode sitting in someone's like basement or attic storage area? that a place? Always thrift stores are great too. My mother-in-law found a brand new tub transfer bench tag still on at the thrift store. I mean, obviously check it out, make sure it's
Emilia Bourland
great places.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
not broken and you can adjust the legs and it's stable and all that, but that's also a good place. And then of course there are, you know, depending on where you live, there's like lending closets or, you know, adaptive equipment closets, places where you could go for, where you could, you know, borrow the item and bring it back, or if you could purchase it inexpensively. But there are some people who are willing to pay for the nicer things. And so
That's really fun to at least for toilet talk. That's where I like to come in where I'm like, Oh, I have some, you know, more options for people who like to plan ahead of time. Um, you know, there's this other woman I'm working with who, um, she's talking about her bathroom and she's like, do I need grab bars right now? I don't have, you know, like I can easily get on and off the toilet right now, you know, in and out of the shower right now.
And so there's things that can be done to get ready. you know, there are people who are like, if you're in the middle of remodeling your bathroom, you can have extra blocking put in, in places where you're probably going to install a grab bar in the future. And so before the drywalls put on, basically you ask your contractor, Hey, do you have any like spare plywood, any extra studs that you know are
and can go ahead and put that blocking within the wall so that you don't have to worry about making sure that your grab bars are going to hit the studs because you have all this extra room in the wall to put them. So if you're like, I don't need a grab bar right now. I don't need the folding grab bar that's on the same wall as the toilet tank, at least doing that kind of work.
in ahead of time will save you so much time down the line as far as like putting in the more expensive option so that you actually you're using the equipment, which is the most important part. You're not not using it because you think it's ugly, but you're using the equipment. You feel good because it's like, this, you know, fits in with my bathroom decor. I love it. I can, you know, I'm not ashamed to have people come into my bathroom and take a look.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
at it because they won't think I'm, you know, they won't see me as like someone who like lives in a nursing home or is constantly in the hospital.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Yeah, that's all of that is like so good and important to talk about. think to add to what you're saying, because I grew with all that. Like, I very distinctly remember doing a home assessment for somebody who had a small house and one bathroom, and she was having a hard time using the bath, the toilet, and she just really needed a raised toilet seat. And this case, money wasn't even the issue because I think I maybe had one.
or had access to one or something that was available to us. So was not even that she couldn't pay for it. And I was like, we need to put this on the toilet. And then if you do that, then you can get up independently and you'll have to struggle to get up from the toilet. And she literally refused it because her grandkids come over sometimes and she didn't want it to be on the toilet. Even though the frequency of them coming over, even if they come over once a week, that's still one time a week out of seven days.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
or you have to go to the bathroom multiple times a day. She was willing to struggle to get up and down from the toilet just for the visual impact. Because kids aren't gonna, kids literally don't care. They're gonna be like, ooh, this is cool. I can climb on top of this. Like they're gonna just love it. But she just cared so much about things being the same for them or maybe hurt them not seeing her in a different light that she was willing to struggle every day for that purpose. And so that stood out to me because prior to that,
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
For the most part, was able to convince most people that like, hey, this is for your health and safety. You know, let's, let's do this. And didn't have a terrible amount of pushback, you know? And for her to be so strong about that made me think that like, well, my recommendations are only as good as they are used. And so even if I make the best recommendations possible and I've thought of all the things is affordable or free, it's, know, whatever it fits, solves the problem. If I haven't addressed all of her concerns.
then and she doesn't do it, then all of that's trash. And so that put me on the mission to like make sure that I always had a breadth of recommendations that fit every situation. So something that was affordable, which might not look the most beautiful, but it does the job. Something in the middle of the way, which like I spent a little bit more money, it looks a little nicer, a few more bells and whistles, and something fancier that maybe doesn't even look like an adaptive tool. And so now that I've...
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
pretty much fleshed all that out and have something for everything in that kind of thought process. I don't get a ton of pushback because if somebody is like, no, I'm dead set on having a grab bar. I'm like, that's fine. If you don't want these toilet rails because whatever, it doesn't matter. And you want grab bars, we got grab bars. Here's a grab bar here. This is where you should put it. It's gonna require these things. If you're willing to do those things to get it in, no problem. Here it is. Here's a color that you want. Here's a shape that you want.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Like there should be no barriers to having your home be as accessible as possible because that's the only place in our lives that we can actually control how it looks and feels. And you should have full control over that and have all the options available to you. So I don't think it's frivolous to make sure that when you're giving recommendations as an occupational therapist, that you're not just giving the cheapest because you think that's the only thing people care about is that you're also showing like, this is the breadth of what you could do.
These are different kinds even like raised toilet seat. I don't know how to go to the details, but you're like there's there's different versions for everything and They can't look very tough as stuff has progressed and they can look very much like normal without having to make your house look like a nursing home
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, yeah.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah, totally.
Emilia Bourland
Well, I think that's the essence of client-centered practice and care, right? Is understanding that not everyone has the same priorities, not everyone has the same needs, and really understanding what's important to an individual besides just the things that we might think are important, what's important to that individual. And I think you're right, Brandy, when we can meet those needs, that's when we find that we're not getting pushed back because we've met the need, all the needs.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Yep, all the neaths.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
So then things can get implemented. But yeah, I love that. That's a great story.
Brandy Archie
not just the function.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Totally. yeah, just, just real quick. Yeah, I had worked with a client. It was the same kind of situation where she was worried about her adult children who also lived in the home. So she, she did not want to have a tub transfer bench in the shower because that then it would get in the way. It would get in their way.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
And it's like, they're willing to, you know, move it out of the way when they shower, if they don't need to use it, of course. And there was no convincing her. So it's like, you would rather have, you know, someone who had, yeah, she, was like, I seeing her after some major heart surgery. It was like a cabbage. And it's just like, no, please use the.
Like you're you had like major major surgery and showers are hard work. Shower like getting undressed, like getting wet, showering, drying off, getting I mean, it's just like, please. But yeah, it can. You just have to respect where people are at. And then, you know, I'm always hopeful that the seed is planted. And it's like, okay, you know, maybe she
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
took a couple of showers and she was like, I almost like lost it both times and like really got hurt. yeah, maybe I should, you know, go get a tub transfer bench this time, you know, like screw my kids. Like, let me think of myself first and take care of myself so I can heal from this freaking heart surgery. So yeah, it's, yeah, gotta meet people where they're at.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Hahaha
Brandy Archie
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Yeah, you know the thing that I like to say is like to tell the people to reframe it because they're not going to say screw their kids. They're just not going to do it.
Emilia Bourland
That's the...
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I know!
Emilia Bourland
I think, that's the Care Lab. Listen, that's the Care Lab t-shirt from today. Screw the kids. I need the bench.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah, screw the kids. Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Do whatever I I need a bitch. Exactly. But I tell people, listen, I say, if anybody's coming over, they're coming over, why? To see you. They care about you. And so since they care about you, and this is care for you, don't you think they're not gonna be worried about this? And then people are like, yeah. And anybody who will be like a jerk about it shouldn't be coming over or probably isn't coming over.
Emilia Bourland
Screw the kids, I need a bench.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
because they don't care about you. They're not coming to visit you at your home when you're sick. So think about it that way. And then people are like,
Emilia Bourland
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah, screw them. Screw them as well.
Emilia Bourland
And then on the back of the t-shirt, just says screw them as well. Quote, Maria Lindbergh. I tell you what, there's gonna be some weird t-shirts on there.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
This merch store, bro, this merch store is gonna be crazy.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
you
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, we should do another one that says sexy bedside commode on it. Because what I'm hearing from all this is we need more, we need durable medical equipment that is sexier for people and affordable too.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes.
Brandy Archie
Yeah, because if you don't like how it looks, you're not gonna use it or have it available to you. And then that's like the worst, it's the worst thing, because you know you need it, but you're not using it, you know? But yeah, we need more designs. But I think that stuff is coming out, especially in like adaptive tools that you wear. I see a big improvement in like bras and underwear and adaptive clothing and yeah, everything that you put on your body, watches, follower buttons that look better, you know?
Emilia Bourland
100%.
Emilia Bourland
It is.
Uh-huh.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
Everything you put on your body, people are clued into. There's still a very much legacy kind of positioning for like the equipment, the standard equipment that we recommend the most, but there are also options there too. And if you want to check those out, you can find them at AskSammy.com.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Ta-da!
Brandy Archie
Yep. That's what I do.
Emilia Bourland
Listen, do we have time for another controversial bathroom thing? Okay. Okay.
Brandy Archie
I think we got time. Yeah, we got time.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yes, I just want, I want to put this, this one kind of kills me a little bit. It kills me a lot. I want to know what you both think about space heaters in the bathroom on the floor.
Emilia Bourland
Well, there are lots of places that we could go with that. I'm to let Brandy start this one, because I started the last one.
Brandy Archie
I care a lot about being warm. However, space heaters are problematic in general. They use a lot of energy. It's easy to short circuit stuff. They are in my house and people use them in my house, but they don't last that long because eventually something shorts and to have it near water is a challenge. But I am very for having a very warm bathroom. And so that might just mean switching your light bulb out.
for a heat light bulb, right? And that way it makes you shut the door and the place stays warm. There is very functional reasons for having increased amount of heat in the bathroom so that our tone doesn't flare up and we don't get tight or that maybe our trimmers don't get to their worst state because we're cold, that we're not rushing because we're cold, which means we do better with our mobility. So I'm for heat. I don't know that I'm for space heaters in there.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, I would basically second all of that. If someone is cold in the bathroom, and again, I agree, being warm is very, important. Keeping people warm in the bathroom is very important for pain management. It's better for safety. It's better for many different kinds of condition management that we want to make sure people aren't freezing in the bathroom. But my go-to is also switch out light bulb with a heating light bulb. It can be nice and toasty and cozy in there.
The problem with space heaters are besides just the potential electrical problems. And of course, depending on when your house was built and if your electricity is up to code and things like that, the risk of electric shock, like these are all really big deals. They're also tripping hazards. Many bathrooms are not that big and a space heater is gonna take up a large amount of room, both in terms of where the heater itself is, plus the plug and the cord and wherever that's going. So there's a tripping hazard there.
Brandy Archie
Mm.
Emilia Bourland
It's a hazard for burns. This is one of the things that I talk about in general when I'm talking about safety with space heaters with clients is, and again, same like there are space heaters in my house. So I'm not going to pretend like I'm holier than that when I've never used a space heater before. But we need to be really thoughtful about how we're using them because they can be dangerous, both from a fire hazard perspective as well as that tripping hazard, as well as a burn.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I'm
Emilia Bourland
hazard, I have treated pe burns because they set to a space heater or be in a house fire that was like, but but zeroing in too close to a space heat burns on a person such th
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
all kinds of really, really, really unpleasant stuff that we would not ever wish on anyone. And so if they're around, they have to be used really judiciously, keeping safety top of mind all the time, particularly if someone does not have good sensation in any part of their body and they cannot feel how hot they are getting with that space heater.
Brandy Archie
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
The space heater isn't going to shut off automatically because you are getting too hot or because your skin is starting to blister. So if you cannot feel that, and there are a large number of people who for a variety of reasons, people with spinal cord injuries, people with strokes, people with diabetic neuropathy, any kind of peripheral neuropathy, any kind of sensation impairment, there should be so much thought and caution around using a space heater for all of the reasons.
Brandy Archie
The Rapti.
Emilia Bourland
Trust me, folks, I've seen it. It ain't pretty. You don't want that.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
No, no, I will admit I have space heaters as well in my house. And yeah, no, I mean, that shouldn't be, know, definitely not ashamed of that. It's just like, it is what it is. But yeah, when I think of, I'm just like, you're naked, you're wet and naked in the bathroom. And if you, you know, like you were saying, most bathrooms are teeny tiny and you're putting...
your body in front of that space heater. That is so bad. It is just so bad. And yeah, things go wrong very, very quickly. And yeah, I tell people, I mean, especially if you're using like a walker in the bathroom, it's, you know, it will easily trip on that, on that plug and wire. I've had so many people fight me on this space heaters. That's why I wanted to bring it up.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
And there are so many other good options. I mean, I absolutely love the heated light bulb. But also if you're a family member, yeah, I've had caregivers fight me on the space heater too. But I'm like, why are you fighting me on this? This is like less work for you. Aren't you hot in the bathroom? Do you really wanna help your mom while you're standing fully clothed next to a space heater? Like, why are you fighting me on this?
Brandy Archie
You
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Sweating?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
But other things can be helpful for people too, like having a robe, a very fluffy, nice, warm robe close by. If your family member is cold in the bathtub or shower, you could put a towel around their shoulders, wash their lower body, and then have a towel on their lap while washing their upper body. There are just things like that that can really be helpful that are
more safe than using a space heater. And then for those of you who are like, I don't want to put a heat light bulb and you've got a ton of money and you're doing a bathroom remodel, put in radiant floor heating. That is a goal for me in my house to put in radiant floor heating so that I will safely feel warm. The joints in your feet, the joints, the tendons, ligaments, all will be so happy.
Emilia Bourland
Mmm. Ooh, yeah. That feels nice.
Brandy Archie
Yep.
Brandy Archie
Yep.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
you did that and chose that. That way you're not, you're able to comfortably be in your bathroom, feel nice, warm and toasty and not freeze during the winter times, which here in the Midwest, in Kansas City, winter can feel very cold. I have tile floors in my bathroom and I get cold as well. But guess what's next to my shower? A robe. Yes, house shoes, robe.
Brandy Archie
Your robe, your house shoes.
Emilia Bourland
was gonna say, not a space heater, right?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Space, a space eater that I point directly at myself so it can blow me off as I...
Emilia Bourland
was like, wait, this is...
Brandy Archie
Do as I say, not as I do.
Emilia Bourland
This is gonna take a turn!
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Surprise! Gotcha! You thought I was gonna say robe, it's actually space heater.
Emilia Bourland
Hahaha!
Emilia Bourland
Yeah. No, to be clear people, she's saying rope, not space eater. No space eaters.
Brandy Archie
But one other little...
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Yeah, to be clear, no no no, yeah, no space heaters in the bathroom.
Brandy Archie
No spaces in the bathroom. I think that's a universal, we agree. Also one other little trick, I love the towel thing, especially when you're in the shower wet and that towel can keep you warmer. Another thing that I see people not doing or doing that they could easily fix is like, you're trying to help somebody shower and you don't have, maybe you have a handheld shower head, but you don't have a place that you can reach it at. And so when you're not holding it to rinse off, you drop it.
and let it hang down and the water's going like wherever to the tub or to the drain, but you're cold because you don't have the warm water on you. If you just get an extra handheld shower head holder and stick it on the wall, it can be screwed in, it can be stuck on the wall, be suction cup to the wall. Doesn't matter, just put it right next to where you are so you can reach it. Then the water can be pouring on you still like it would normally do if you were standing up and fully mobile and keep you warm. And it costs like $5.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, so easy.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Common Sense Solutions. Find it on AskSammy.com.
Emilia Bourland
So simple.
Brandy Archie
Thanks for the commercial.
I know, I hate to plug it all the time, but it's just like, it's because people have these real problems and so like, and there are real solutions that don't have to be tear out the bathroom and redo it. If you got the money for that, I'm for it. But most of us are just trying to get by every day. So there's little solutions and they exist. Yep. We're just trying to buy some eggs, man, for real. Listen, we do not have as many scrambled eggs in my house. Right.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
some eggs. We're all just trying to buy some eggs.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Exactly. Not all of us can have chickens.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-mm.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
That is a luxury. It is a luxury to get some scrambled eggs.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie
We were just talking before we started recording and Maria's sister has chickens and we were just, cause I was complaining about how much eggs cost and we used to eat eggs so much. That was like my primary protein. Now I'm like, how many things can I do without eggs?
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I know, that makes me so sad.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, because like you could, you could like blow through some eggs, right? Like bam, three eggs for breakfast. Like that's no thing, but you know, when you're paying, I don't know. Anyway, this episode isn't supposed to be about the cost of eggs, but it's a real thing that's happening right now, folks. And it's probably not gonna get any better. So there you go. Not anytime soon. That's true. You know what? Things always get better.
Brandy Archie
yeah!
Brandy Archie
It's real thing that's happening right now.
Brandy Archie
anytime soon. We still have hope though.
Emilia Bourland
That's the real deal of it, right? Like sometimes we go through tough stuff, but eventually things get better. Sometimes it might take a while, but the pendulum will always swing. All right, well, listener, Maria, thanks for being on again. You're the best. You know we love you.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Thank you for having me. Talking about bathrooms, talking about chickens and screwing the kids. Like, not in that way. Probably should have phrased it better. Anyway.
Brandy Archie
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
that there's
Emilia Bourland
bathrooms, chickens, screw the kids. That's on the t-shirt too. These are weird t-shirts we're gonna be selling here, folks.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
Bathrooms, yeah. Yeah, well, it makes sense when it comes from my mouth. Yeah.
Brandy Archie
Nyan.
Emilia Bourland
That's also on the t-shirt. It makes sense when it comes from my mouth. Okay. All right. I'm going to stop with the t-shirt thing for right now. Dear listener, if you made it to the end of the episode, maybe, yeah, then bless you. Maybe someday we will actually have some merch for you to buy. But in the meantime, if you would do us a favor, please make sure that you're liking subscribing. Go check out some other episodes with the great Maria Lindbergh. Download those, share them with folks.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
I'm
Brandy Archie
Bless you.
Maria Lindbergh (Toilet Talk)
You
Emilia Bourland
These are great ways for you to get more information, but also great ways to help other people discover the educational content and the helpful stuff that we're trying to do here at CareLab. We appreciate you very much, and we will see you right here next time on CareLab. Bye.
Brandy Archie
Bye everybody.
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