Listen and hit ≡ in the player to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform! Or if you'd rather see our faces 👩🏽⚕️🧑🏼⚕️watch it here on YouTube.
Summary
In this Care Lab Episode, hosts Brandy Archie and Emilia Bourland discuss essential bath safety measures with guest Maria Lindbergh. The episode highlights the importance of preventing bathroom-related accidents, particularly for seniors and individuals with mobility challenges. The conversation covers practical solutions, including safety equipment, accessibility improvements, and maintenance tips to create a safer and more functional bathroom environment.
Key Takeaway
- Slips and Falls Prevention: Non-slip mats, grab bars, and shower chairs help minimize risks in the bathroom.
- Accessible Bathing Solutions: Walk-in tubs, handheld showerheads, and raised toilet seats enhance accessibility.
- Temperature Control: Anti-scald devices and temperature-regulating faucets help prevent burns.
- Proper Lighting: Adequate lighting reduces the risk of missteps, particularly at night.
-
Regular Maintenance: Checking for leaks, mold, and worn-out safety equipment ensures ongoing protection.
Transcript
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Welcome to Care Lab. We're feeling real good because we've got Maria here and we love, first of all, we love an all OT show. Second of all, we love to have Maria here. So, and third of all, we're excited to be together. So welcome Maria.
Maria Lindbergh
laughs
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be back. You guys are the best. I love talking with you, especially about caregiver things and all of the OT things, especially toileting. So yeah, I am down to clown Charlie Brown.
Emilia Bourland
so this is funny. I was, I was, I was in like an all day in-person meeting with my new co-founder at senior AI this week. And he was talking about like how all of a sudden he is, he's like becoming immersed in like the older adult and senior care world. He's, you know, consuming all this information. He's like, I've never seen so much about incontinence. And I was like, I tell you what.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
This is where we roll right here.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
We can listen, listen, this is where the rubber meets the road, my friend. Let's talk about incontinence. And he was like, I didn't mean I wanted to talk about it right now. And I was like, but we could.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
and we're gonna talk about it a lot, so get used to it. That's why Maria, Toilet Talk is such a good name. When you first came out with that, I was like, yeah, this is totally OT. This is what we do all the time, toilet talk, exactly.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, so get used to it.
Maria Lindbergh
That is so awesome.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Yes, yes.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, absolutely. wanted, yes. But I wanted to say Amelia, because now I'm seeing you in person. Congratulations on senior AI. Like, heck yes. That is so wonderful. I know I commented on it yesterday on LinkedIn, but I'm like, here's my chance to say like, congratulations for being like official out in the open. Like, very exciting.
Emilia Bourland
thank you, thank you.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, you know, LinkedIn official, it's a thing. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. It is now. Made it that way. Made it a thing.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Is it?
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes, we made it a thing. We made it a thing. We're reclaiming Facebook official and moving over to some LinkedIn. This just only describes how old we are.
Emilia Bourland
That's true. That's true.
Maria Lindbergh
It's a thousand percent true, yeah. But yeah, the toileting, yeah, toileting all the time everywhere. I had put a poll up on LinkedIn and talking about falls in the bathroom because that's a big deal. And I was just curious, how many times do OTs talk about falls in the bathroom in like...
you know, do they do it daily, weekly, monthly or never? And the majority of the answers were never. Yes.
Emilia Bourland
What? Wait, was this a poll of OTs?
Maria Lindbergh
It was, it was a poll I put on my LinkedIn and there are a lot of OT followers. So I don't know if like, don't think that any, addressed the question specifically towards like occupational therapy practitioners. And so for those that answered, um, a majority never talk about falls in the bathroom or like the cost of it. No, don't, oh wait, no, the cost of it. I'm so sorry.
Emilia Bourland
huh.
Emilia Bourland
O T uh-huh uh-huh okay
Maria Lindbergh
specifically what is the cost. Sorry, I set everybody up. I'm sure there's OTs like talking about more, talking about tilling. But the cost of falling.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
okay.
Emilia Bourland
Emilia Bourland
So listen, if you are, hold on, hold on. If you're listening to this and not watching, the looks on Brandy and I's face, like both of our jaws just dropped.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Ha
Maria Lindbergh
I don't feel like the coffee hasn't kicked in quite yet. Sorry everybody. No, the cost of a fall in the bathroom, which is around $30,000. Like for, yes, yes. So if they go to the hospital.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
in the bathroom. That's like... yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Because we couldn't believe it. Yeah.
Whew!
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
Wow.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
And you know how much a tub transfer bitch costs? $100. And how, or less, but I'm just saying, I'm giving us a good healthy budget, $100, and insurance will not pay for that. However, they will pay for your $30,000 hip fracture and fix and hospital stay. Just saying, if any payers are listening, I'm just saying, I'm trying to save you money, guys.
Emilia Bourland
or less.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, doesn't make it make sense. But yeah, I mean, you talk about literally like any bathroom modification, even if you were to go like full blown, like we're gonna get this bathroom, we're gonna put in a barrier free shower, grab bars and a handheld shower head and all the works like shower, tub bench, that would cost less than one fall in the bathroom at home. is wild. It is wild to me.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, that is actually it is so the way that we prioritize things in health care is so frustrating. And I think it's here's the thing, if you're listening to this and you are not a health care provider, we because we have listeners who are we have lots of listeners who are health providers. We have lots of listeners who are family caregivers, not not health care providers at all. Here's something that I want you to know. That is that.
Your health care provider is just as frustrated as you are with how things work. We don't want it to be like this either. Because I think we all realize none of this makes any sense. Crazy pants.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, it definitely doesn't make any sense. And yeah, Brandi, like to your point, like health plans should pay for it. You should pay, you know, they should opt to pay for the $100 tub transfer bench. you know, and especially like, I don't know, I could go on and on and on about it and I won't, I won't take everyone. Like, let's go on this crazy, you know, path with Maria, but yeah.
Emilia Bourland
top bench.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, it definitely, this is something that it's like, yes, this makes so much more sense to save everyone's money to be able to pay for like simple home modifications and things to keep people safe at home.
Emilia Bourland
And I am going to go down this crazy path just a little bit longer, actually. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. So one of the things that we've talked about on CareLab before is like, know, and Brandy talks about this a lot, the reasons why Medicare or other insurers won't pay for this type of equipment. Right. And that is and like jump in and correct me here, Brandy, if you need to. But basically, the idea is that if that equipment can benefit
Maria Lindbergh
okay, okay.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
I was just about say, this is why you're here, so yes, let's go down this path.
Maria Lindbergh
you
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yeah, yeah.
Emilia Bourland
someone else in the household or isn't like tied to a direct like medical condition then they basically are like, nah, this isn't, we're not gonna pay for this. But here's the thing. Here's the, I mean, there's lots of holes in that logic but here's one of the holes in the logic. I've never met anyone who saw a tub transfer bench and was like, damn, that's sexy, I need one of those.
Maria Lindbergh
You're 1000 % right. Like my mother-in-law, my mother-in-law broke her ankle a couple years ago and she is very much into aesthetics, right? Like her bathroom looks a certain way. And just knowing that that was the only way for her to save, like she couldn't put weight on one foot because she had to let her ankle heal. And for her like to go like,
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
that's my choice. That's my this plastic, this white plastic, flimsy feeling, tub transfer bench is the only option I have right now to actually get a shower so can feel like a human being. Like that's, mean, yes. So to your point, Amelia, yeah, no one is like, ooh, yes, let me I better get one of those just because like I'm getting it for free or what I like.
Emilia Bourland
Mmm.
Maria Lindbergh
No one's abusing plastic white tub transfer edges.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
No. And they are great.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
That's true. But also, but also, yes and we should be making it cool and make it fit the space. And that's why I gave us a healthy budget of $100 because there are nicer ones and there are ones that are built in and flip down and there's lots of things, there's lots of options, but you just don't know that. And also if you don't plan for that, you might not be able to enact that because you fell and broke your ankle and you didn't know that was going to happen. Do you know what I mean? You might not have the time to order said thing, get said thing installed.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Exactly.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
and have it match your decor. But if you think about it in advance and you plan for it, then you can make it look beautiful. that's, that's the, to me, that should be part of our motivation for planning ahead because humans don't like to plan ahead and we like to procrastinate. This is the same reason why insurance doesn't really even want to pay for this kind of stuff because our system is set up to build, to cover things that have happened, not to prevent things from happening.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
I'm
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
And so we can easily say, sure, if you fall, it costs this much. And if you didn't, you could just spend this much. But what if nobody fell? They're kind of leaning on that hope. Like, well, you know, the 30,000 doesn't have to be spent if nobody falls. And that's like denial, but it's also partially true because not everybody does fall. So it's not a one-to-one correlation. And so you've got to be intentional about taking the effort to do a few things.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
not only to prevent a fall, but also to have the things in place that you would want to have, that you can love, that you can like how it looks. And those things do exist.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes, and I, no, Amelia, you go ahead.
Emilia Bourland
I was just gonna say and and planning ahead for like having those things already there doesn't mean that you're planning to have an issue, right? It doesn't mean you're planning to get sick or be injured. It means you're planning to stay healthy, actually.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes, yes, that is the easiest way to keep making sure that your needs are taken care of no matter what comes your way. the thing too with Brandy, you're right, not everyone falls, not everyone needs a wheelchair, not everyone has a lot of like chronic health conditions. The thing though that healthcare,
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Maria Lindbergh
companies or health plans or long-term care insurance, what they're seeing now is that even though not everyone has a fall or is really sick, they are still paying unsustainable amounts of money for people to receive healthcare services. And they look at it as if like, okay, know, like for Medicaid,
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
programs in each state where they're like, are spending, you know, thousands like this huge part of our budget on personal caregivers to go into people's homes because those people aren't able to go to the bathroom by themselves and like pull up their pants and wipe their bottoms and they're not able to shower themselves. And so they're looking at this like, this is a huge problem because we are getting more people who are living longer.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
in a healthcare system that doesn't focus on prevention and keeping people as healthy long-term as possible. So, and for life insurance companies as well, yeah, through any employer nowadays, I've never worked for a company, like we grew up in this time where we never worked for companies where we had, we could buy these like life.
life insurance policies like through an employer where we would gain benefits or we would have those benefits after leaving that job. But for the people who did have it, who are now older, becoming older adults with more needs, those are companies that are finding out like, no, if everyone uses their long-term care benefit, like we're going to be out of business.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
So those are the people who are now thinking like, shoot, we do need to invest in some kind of prevention because in the longterm, like we're not gonna have enough money to serve everybody and fulfill the promises that we had made initially.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
that we sold. And this is also a reason why, even though that policy was kind of sold to that person when they were working age as like, hey, if you can't live at home, we'll pay for your nursing care. These policies have changed to say, we will also pay for in-home caregivers or home modifications because it's far cheaper to do that at home than it is to go to a skilled or assisted living, which they will be, you know, on the hook for paying for because they did pay for their long-term care insurance. So, okay, I'm going to pause us.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Amelia, we can hear you dragging your coffee cup on the table.
Emilia Bourland
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
I'm so sorry.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
How bad was it?
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
At the first time we were all kind of talking and bantering so I heard it but I don't think it messed anything up. But like right then it was like ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch
Emilia Bourland
Okay, all right, I've moved the cup. Sorry, guys, sorry.
Maria Lindbergh
That's okay.
Emilia Bourland
just, yeah, probably, yeah, I wasn't even aware that I was doing it.
Maria Lindbergh
I heard it, but the mom brain like canceled it out because I'm like, that's not what I'm focusing on. So way to go Brandy.
Emilia Bourland
Okay, I wanna, this has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, but do both of you have an uncanny ability to cancel out noise? That like, I don't mean like, actually like I have a really low sensory threshold for like music. I can't work when there's like music or other people talking or things like that. But if there's like.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
beeping or alarms or my phone ringing or like any of the things that if my husband ever leaves me, will be because I did not respond to a text because I just don't that public on the record. If he ever leaves me, that's why that's what it was. But like I can just block all that stuff out. Can you block all of that out? Is that the same for you or no?
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Hahaha
Maria Lindbergh
You
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
That's what it was.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Okay, I'm gonna preface that by saying I can filter it. And so I can very quickly recognize what that sound is. Does it require my attention? No, it does not. I'm gonna ignore it. But I still hear it. So like there's a din of noise in my house all the time and I'm always like going off, turning off TVs that people have left on and nobody is watching. Turning down TVs like why is it so loud? this down. Why are you child yelling? I'm sitting right here like.
Emilia Bourland
huh.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
I can hear you. So I'm always trying to turn the volume down in the house. But if a kid is crying, like, that's not a hurt cry. That's a, you're mad cry. I'll come deal with you in a little bit. Or maybe you'll get over it before I get there. Or that's, no, that's a crash I've never heard. That's a sound I haven't heard. What is happening? Who is doing that? That's what's happening in my brain very quickly.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah
I love the prioritization.
Emilia Bourland
Uh-huh.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah, that's fair. Maria?
Maria Lindbergh
It's, yeah, it's a similar kind of thing. Like how urgently do you need me? you know, luckily I have one child in the house, so it's not too bad, but sometimes my husband and child will speak at the same time. And I'm like, I can't, I can't do both of you. Like one, it has to be a one at a time situation. But yeah, like, you know, if I hear the dog bark or whatever, it's like.
In the middle of the night, if I hear Saskia waking up, I'll be like, okay, know, yeah, I need to go up to you right then and there. But yeah, it's kind of like, noticed, like I heard the coffee cut, but I'm like, I'm like talking right now. And so I'm just gonna focus on that and not so much. But I forget like, yeah, I guess when you're recording a podcast, maybe you should consider the noises.
Emilia Bourland
Geez, Amelia, maybe you should consider where your coffee cup is while we're recording. Get it together, lady.
Maria Lindbergh
God, get it together. surprised. I hear I'm right next to a staff door and they keep like keying in and I'm like, no, can that can or is it detectable? Like, can you guys hear it? So I guess we'll find out.
Emilia Bourland
I can't hear right now. Okay, I'm gonna, I'll redirect us back to the topic at hand.
Maria Lindbergh
Okay, good.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Since you un-redirected us, yes.
Maria Lindbergh
I
Emilia Bourland
That is my role here. I introduce chaos and tangential topics into the conversation. You're welcome. Not sure. Depends on the listener's preference. OK. I do want to ask you, though, Maria, especially since you're huge focus with Toilet Talk. And if you haven't checked out Toilet Talk or followed Maria, you absolutely should because her content and her education
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
haha
Maria Lindbergh
You're like chaos.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
level on this stuff is like bananas. It's out of this world. You absolutely should check that out. Also her fun, creative aesthetic that we were talking about earlier. What are some of your favorite things to recommend to people for fall prevention in the bath?
Maria Lindbergh
Thank you.
Maria Lindbergh
my number one, like everyone on the planet needs this is a grab bar at the shower entry. Just one that's vertical, which means up and down for those of you who can be spatially challenged like me. Yes, just one straight up and down grab bar next to the shower. That is just like the secret sauce I have in my household because there's quite a range of heights.
My daughter, she's five, she's less than four feet tall. The grab bar needs to be low enough so that she can comfortably reach it. So she's not like reaching up high for a grab bar, but something that she can grip close to her body. And then my husband's six feet tall and I'm in the middle. So we have a longer grab bar to accommodate all of us. And in fact, like when my kiddo, we only have
like step-in showers in our house. We don't have like a tub shower or anything, or even just a straight up tub. So ever since she started where she could walk into the shower, she's been holding on to the grab bar, which has been great because I don't know about you, but like my toddler, well, when she was a toddler, she's a little clumsy. They're just like, they're kind of all over the place. And me as an adult, I'm still the same. Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
They're like little rubber bouncy balls.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah. Can you, can I ask you, did she just do that naturally? Was she just like, bam, that's there, I'm going to use it? Did she do that? See, that's a well-placed, just intuitive grab bar then that everyone is using. I love this.
Maria Lindbergh
I didn't have to tell her.
Maria Lindbergh
It's a universal design concept where it's just, has that intuitive, like people, they walk into this space and they're like, this is obviously what this is for, like for me to hold on to. And it's, you know, if she uses another shower, she's putting her hand up on the wall or on the shower framing or whatever anyway. Like that's just, it's something.
Now for me, like, yeah, I use the grab bar because it's there, but it's just, kind of depends on the environment or if I'm like, that floor looks really slippery. I do want to hold onto something or no, can, you know, I'm at the YMCA. So I'm just going to like walk into the shower and there's not anything for me to step over. Like that's great. but yeah, I would say that is the biggest one that literally anyone can benefit. I'm like, you know, I, we all get sick.
We all like, if you're at the gym having a hard workout day, like it's nice to have something to hold on to. Like injuries happen. like, you know, I'm all B40 this year. So I'm like, why is my knee randomly hurting? I don't know. I woke up like, what did I do to it? I literally don't know. So having something there just in case is always nice no matter
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Bre, you're also dropping gems in here, like just throwing out really key concepts. I'm to put an explanatory comment in because you mentioned universal design, which is not just like an understandable term in those sentences that you're saying, but it's actually a thing. Right. And so like, you know, the concept of universal design for anybody who's never heard of it is that while we all as OTs might have worked with you specifically because your person had a stroke and we made all these changes in your bathroom that were unique to that person's needs.
Emilia Bourland
Mm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
yes!
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Universal Design flips that and says, I don't know who's going to be in this space and I'm going to create it as accessible as possible for any type of person. And that means whoever comes in there will probably find ease in using it. Like the vertical grab bar that's long enough for a kid to reach as well as a six foot tall person. Right. And so that's, that's the thought process that we should have when we
build new things or like make a new house or create a new facility or place. Cause you don't know who's going to live there, but you do know that that place is probably going to exist for the next hundred years. So why don't we make as easy an access space as possible.
Emilia Bourland
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
That's like, that was such a beautiful description. Just like, yeah, planning for like, I don't know who's going to be there, but yeah, that's, that's exactly it. And I totally agree. Like all new building should have, I know we talked about this before Brandy, but seriously, I, I'm going to figure out in Kansas city, like how to make like X, um, visitability, like a thing for new building codes and making sure like there is at least
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
and
Maria Lindbergh
one entryway going into a home that has zero steps. Because not only is that good for people who are wheelchair users or use a walker or you're, like I said, you had a leg day at the gym and you're sore, but it's also great for caregivers. just like, we all, all of us had young children, like how much easier would it be if we don't have to navigate steps while...
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
trying to carry a screaming child inside and know, like bags of stuff and just all those things. Or even like when I was a caregiver for my grandparents and they used rollators and like having to help them navigate that mobility device on, they had two steps to enter their home. But still like that was like a thing, like getting them in and out of the house.
And just having those things in place for people no matter what their life circumstance is, it's just very, very common sense.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
It totally is.
Emilia Bourland
And totally. And I want to key in on this this other really important word that you've used here, which is like visitability and talk about a little bit about what that means for folks. So visibility, visitability is this kind of it's easy to say, first of all, especially if you're me. So you should use it all the time. Visitability is this idea of making sure that that.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Easy to say.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
So you should use it all the time.
Emilia Bourland
all places can be visited by anyone. So it's not just that a home is accessible to that individual person. It's that other, their friends, their families, members of the communities can also be welcomed into those spaces, which is beneficial for everyone. You know, one of the things that we talk about is, that we all talk about as a society is quality of life.
right? What does quality of life mean? It doesn't just mean being able to like get up and go into your own bathroom and wipe your own bottom. Quality of life has to do with being around the people that you love, the people that you care for, being out in your community, doing meaningful activities. And this idea of visitability is really, really key to that in in creating stronger communities that everyone can thrive in as opposed to only those folks whose
like bodies fit into a certain box of function, right? So I think that it's, visitability is one of my favorite, it's not really new, but it's probably in what, like the last five to 10 years that we're really starting to talk about this more. And it's this concept that I really hope continues to grow in terms of people's understanding of it and really embracing this idea that when we build for everyone, we all benefit.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
from that.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
We all benefit. That's totally true. And you know that I think that one step further because I feel like what's happening in the media or news or in health care is to talk about how challenging for mental and our physical bodies is for social isolation for older adults. Right. And we there's all this research coming out that talks about how social isolation is a significant barrier to health and a social determinant of health and
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
So we need to be doing all these things to make sure that the older adults in our lives are not isolated. Well, if you could barely handle getting in and out of your own house, how likely are you to go visit your kid? How likely are you to go to see your friend or go back to church? Because you know the barriers that exist there. You got stairs, you got whatever. I don't know how far it is to the bathroom. When I get to the bathroom, can I get up from the toilet? And all of that is too much to be embarrassed about. So guess what? We stay home.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
And then when we stay home, we don't move as much. We get more depressed. We don't see as many people. And so it's completely connected, right? And so the problem I think we have in our society is that we silo things so much in order to become experts to do well at them, which is understandable. But then when we get that silo, we forget about the rest of the picture. And so we're now caring about social isolation. We should also be caring about visitability because that's a key reason why people are self-selecting to isolate.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Oh yeah, oh gosh, that just reminds me so much of my grandparents. Like my grandparents were Catholic. They used to go to church every Sunday. My grandmother was heavily involved with church activities. She used to sing in the choir. So as she got older, she stopped singing in the choir because there was like this, like 800 stairs and this narrow ass.
staircase to go, you know, they're like rickety, no handrail, like to go up and down to sing in the choir. And so she stopped because she could no longer access and go up there. And so, yeah, so just not going, they relied on like watching church on TV, which is great, you know, technology, wonderful, brought church services into the home. But again, she was less active.
And her being less active when she went out in public, she was also incredibly embarrassed of her incontinence. And it was difficult for her to use other bathroom setups because it was hard for her to like safely move around, get in an, you know, on and off the toilet, dealing with navigate or the rollator, you know, navigating in small spaces with that, which sometimes you're not able to because bathrooms are
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
so small, bathroom doors swinging into the bathroom space so your rollator doesn't fit. Those were barriers. And so for her to get out, was, we need to plan the right time of day. We need to make sure. Of course, we had backup, incontinence products, and those kinds of things. But where are we going? Is the bathroom accessible? She would try to hold it the entire time, which when
You have urinary incontinence. If you're out for a long period of time, that's not a great idea for your bladder. And it makes you even more incontinent. yeah, there was just a lot of things stacked up where it's just like, you know, we, you know, my, live in a family of healthcare providers and that was my grandmother. Like that was her existence in a family of healthcare providers who on the surface you would think like, she sat, nothing to worry about.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm.
Maria Lindbergh
But no, even with like that level of support, she still was not able to get out as frequently as she liked. And so she did have that level of social isolation.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Because you can have all the knowledge in the world, but if you don't have an environment that is set up to support putting that knowledge into practice, it doesn't matter. I think, like, thank you so much for sharing that story, Maria, because I think it keys into the fact everyone, every single person who is listening to this or watching this has a story like that.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
They have a loved one who has been through this. Maybe they've been through this. These aren't like, you know, nebulous kind of what if examples. These are real world things that we know happen to people and they have an impact on individuals. They have an impact on families and they have an impact on us all whether we want to think it does or not. If you could care less about someone's ability to go out and have a higher quality of life.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
I bet you still care about how much it's gonna cost you in the long run. And that does come back to cost all of us, right? Because when we don't support strong communities and strong social networks and strong social support systems, we spend more on healthcare because there's more debilities, there's more falls. We have to put more money into spending on care providers, right? Like...
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
because there's not the social support system to step in there and help us all work as communities together the way that we're actually supposed to. Like we're not supposed to live all by ourselves, as humans. We're pet creatures, folks. We need each other. So like, if you don't care about anything else, and I actually think most people do care very deeply about the quality of life of the people around them.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Exactly. Yep.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
but we have to think about this in this bigger way. So that was like such a great example, Maria.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
I'm really glad, yeah, I'm sure I have zero doubts that people listening to that can connect with like, well, I'm seeing that my family now I see that my parents or grandparents or whatever, or that happened to my neighbor. And so yeah, just thinking about, you know, I couldn't help but think like, oh, you know, the introverts or like people who are like, well, I don't wanna get out in the community or I don't wanna, which is fine, that's great. But when you go,
we all need to go see the doctor at some point in time. all, like no one is immune from like going to the grocery store or the library, like where I'm at, or know, places where you would want and like to go, even traveling, like if you had to travel somewhere. Like all of these places need to be accessible so that everyone can easily get in and out. And you're, I just can't help but remember like,
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
my parents used to live in this house where they had a lot of steps. Any way to get into the house, they had a lot of steps. And so that was something where my grandmother, she came to a point where she was like, I can't come over for Christmas because it just, I'm too scared to go up and down your stairs, even if you come and help me and physically, it's too much. so, yeah, but I have a lot of hope that because
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Like the conversation is getting bigger about like visitability and accessibility. know in the country right now, there's a lot of issues with like diversity, equity and inclusion. And just, you know, we're, getting these voices from the federal government that are like, these programs are not important, but I'm starting to see a huge backlash. And I know like as an occupational therapist, I am part of that.
to say like, no, these are things that must stay in place because these, know, everyone deserves to belong in these public spaces. Everyone deserves to get healthcare and education and, you know, on and on and on, like all of the resources that we need. And so this is a part like this community accessibility, but even home, home visibility, see, easy for me to say too. Like all of the...
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Hahaha
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, just like, you know, let's all continue to advocate for it because within aging population, it doesn't make any, it just doesn't make any sense to try to go back the other way and say, no, no, we, we like having things and accessible as they are. And we, you know, we love excluding others. No, that's ridiculous to me.
Emilia Bourland
I think the other, I'm going to piggyback on that a little bit more and a hundred percent with you, Maria, that like we should support diversity, equity and inclusion programs. And those should be supported by the top levels of everywhere because when we are diverse and when we are inclusive, we're so much stronger than when we're not. I also want to say that no matter what the government tells us.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
we can choose to embrace diversity. We can choose to embrace inclusion. We can choose to embrace equity in our own endeavors and whatever we do. And like, that's an important part of how we support those things every day as well and how we kind of push back against some of these ideas that maybe that being diverse, being equitable and being inclusive is somehow harmful to us. It's not.
It helps us all. We are all stronger when we're together. I think that's a really American value, actually. And we, think as individuals, can just continue in our own decisions to make sure that we're supporting, you know, making sure that that's still important to everyone.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, absolutely. mean, as healthcare providers, like, I mean, in OT programs, like, you can't graduate from an OT program and sit and take the boards unless you have DEI education as part of your program and part of your, like, training. So it's just like, this backlash is unreal to me because it's like, these are patient populations who are starving.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
And we, you know, as a profession, we advocate for them and we try to make environments like all kinds of environments. But, specifically, I'm talking about the physical environment conducive for everyone. So, yeah, it is it's it's something like I'm very proud of our profession as occupational therapists. And it's.
I feel I've been feeling really good about, you know, participating at the state level and like AOTA level and everyone has the same stance that these are things that we need to keep in place to protect our children, adults, older adults, like all across the lifespan.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
You know, I think this is a great example of how to talk about diversity because frankly, when we say diversity, equity, inclusion, what a lot of people think about is race only. And so while that's the most visible thing, because not everybody's disability or thing is viewable, we're also now acting on that, trying to keep people out of doing things because of their race. But I want you to think about like...
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Is it better or worse for your life if your sister with MS is just as easily able to get to the movie theater as you are? Is it better or worse for your life that your grandma is able to end up on the plane and go on a trip with you because the thing has been made accessible and we've thought about that through and through, right? That's inclusion. That's the definition of inclusion, right? And that's also, and like both having the same level of ability to travel around the-
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
city or the country or wherever you're going is equity. And so to say that this is unimportant and also puts people in jobs that they don't qualify for. No, what it does actually is make, put everybody on a more even playing field because we haven't been on even playing field. Whether it's because you look a certain way and I can see that and I can exclude you or whether I don't see you around because the environment doesn't support your ability to do your everyday functions.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
be here. And so we need to think of it in the more broad sense that it actually is and recognize what the level of impact that is going to be on our society. I think I'm proud about being an OT because our our whole profession is set up to be that right. Because our goal is to try to help you be as safe and as independent as possible doing whatever it is you want to do. And we're queens of adapting. Right. And so that's no different in any of these situations.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well put. You know, one of the core values of being an occupational therapist is the idea of occupational justice, right? And if that doesn't align, then I don't know what does.
Maria Lindbergh
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, kind of like, know, then how, how and why are you an occupational therapy practitioner? But yeah, and just all of health, health care. And I wish that DEI wasn't so politicized right now at the moment. It doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, even the racial part.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Because it's actually not a political issue. You're right, it has been politicized, but it's actually not a political issue.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I think that's like what's super frustrating right now. yeah, it's yeah, it's you know, I think, you know, the more we keep talking about it, and, you know, giving people the opportunity to really think like, yeah, this, you know, dei isn't just about race, even though it's like, I don't know why we're honing in on that specific component. I think
you know, it's important for us to recognize and celebrate each other's differences and knowing like there's way more things that bring us together than not. And it's just like, you know, as healthcare providers, we're like, we see all the ways that people are different, where we have that diversity. Like you said, Brandy, like not everyone's disability is visible.
Like you could see somebody, you know, for people who are neurodivergent, for instance, you know, just like there's all kinds of ways that make people different and just helping people be able to participate, like you said, all at the same level, being able to have the opportunity to experience the world just like anybody else could. I just, don't understand what the...
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Mm-hmm.
Maria Lindbergh
issue is with that. And that's okay. Like, I don't have to understand. All I have to do is just keep focusing on the small things, which is having these important conversations, being active, knowing what's coming up politically, and just being there to help be a voice of reason and support that DEI needs to remain in place. And we should continue to focus on expanding it. And what does that look like? What do we want our communities to look like?
Emilia Bourland
Mm-hmm. And we like you want a smaller talent pool or a bigger talent pool?
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Facts.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Emilia Bourland
If I'm hiring, I want a bigger talent pool. If I'm looking, you know, towards like the kids that are coming up in the world right now and who are gonna be taking care of us and not all that long, because time flies, folks, like bigger talent pool. Let's draw on all of the amazing talent that's out there and not exclude it because it doesn't fit into a certain like box or mold that we think it ought to.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Listen.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
Because who knows what's around the corner for any of us? What if someday we don't necessarily fit into that box or mold? That's why it's so important, like, you know, thinking about just taking care of everyone.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Emilia Bourland
we could go on forever and ever and ever.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Those are also facts.
Emilia Bourland
because it's the three of us and we just can't stop when we get together. And we should probably have Maria back on again very soon to keep talking about bathroom stuff, because we didn't even cover.
Maria Lindbergh
Yeah.
Maria Lindbergh
I would love to.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
We didn't talk about that.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Okay.
Emilia Bourland
Ha ha, yeah. You thought we were talking about this, but then we talked about auditory distraction and DEI, so there you go.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Indeed. I have no idea what we're going to title this episode because we were just like all over. We talked about all of the things. Talk about all the things with Maria Lindberg on CareLab. That's what it's going to be.
Maria Lindbergh
you
Emilia Bourland
Nice.
That's the title there. Done. Done and dusted. I do want to say real fast, because Maria, you didn't get a good introduction because we just jumped right in because we know each other so well. Yeah, if you if you don't know Maria, Maria Lindbergh is an occupational therapist who helps people make beautiful and safe bathrooms by providing candid toilet tips and bathroom solutions at ToiletTalk.me. You can follow her on all kinds of social media and you definitely should.
Maria Lindbergh
Yes.
Maria Lindbergh
I'm like, everyone knows me. No, I'm kidding.
Emilia Bourland
and if you have made it to the end of this episode, then bless you and please make sure that you subscribe and download some more episodes and please leave some comments. We would love to know about what you want to hear about on a care lab. Maybe, maybe something that you want Maria to come back and talk about specifically. That would be super fun. And we'll try to stay on topic. No promises. Nope.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Yes.
Maria Lindbergh
We'll try very hard, no promises, yeah.
Emilia Bourland
We'll try, no promises. Until next time though, we'll see you right back here on CareLab. Bye.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L
Bye everybody.
Maria Lindbergh
Thank you and goodbye.
Do us a favor and subscribe to the CareLab podcast on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts! It will help others find our conversations and grow the community and you’ll stay updated with the latest insights and expert advice on elder care.
